Hello Marquis:

Thank you for the discussion. This discussion needs to tale place because I have both extremes in my classes:

1. I have students' who want to learn, who seek future opportunities based on achieving higher education. These students' are the majority of my classes and these students' seek to learn based on propelling their careers.

2. I have other student (a few) who are in two different categories:

A) They expect to receive "A" grades without performing at a high level. They do not care how they performed the assignment, they want the "A" and they will do anything to get it. These students' are very disruptive to the instructors and to their fellow students in the class.

B) These students' do not have the academic skills to perform in the classroom. They consistently need tutoring on their writing skills, English composition skills, and mathematical skills, however; they are unwilling to receive the help needed, but expect passing grades.

Category 2 students' are prevalent more today than ever before. I am really concerned as a faculty member how these students' disrupt my classes and do whatever they want to obtain their grade. Higher education today needs to become vigilant how they accept students' in their academic programs, and cease grade inflation, giving students' grades they do not deserve and not based on the content of the assignments. I have had students' repeatedly state to me, "a "B" grade is not a good grade, I want an "A!" When I inform them, based on their assignment rubric that they did not receive that grade, they become disruptive and will do anything to cause problems in my classes.

Regards,

Joseph Kennedy

Joseph, I have heard similar stories from colleagues at various institutions across the country. Have you found ways that help mitigate problem behaviors in your classroom? For example, I was reading an article "Managing Misbehavior in the College Classroom," and the author suggests that speaking to the student in private can be helpful. Could it really be that simple or do we, as instructors of adult learners, need to develop more aggressive strategies before problems arise?

I'm interested in hearing some thoughts and ideas! I think we all can relate to this issue, whether directly or indirectly.

Hello Marquis:

Answering your question, yes. I am very clear on my course announcements to my students' what I expect and the course assignments based on the rubric is very helpful, but it is apparent; students' do not read my course announcements in my classes. However, I also think students' should be informed by the university, the expectations based on grading, professional communications with respect being valued at all times, and an explanation of processes that will happen when students' cross the line, especially based on the actions within courses. 

I am a big believer in the code of student ethical conduct as a guide for students to follow. The student code of conduct should provide specific processes and procedures students' need to follow and if they do not, an explanation of consequences should be provided for all students.

Recently, I informed a student in my graduate level strategic management course, "It is unrealistic to think that you are going to make an "A" in every assignment in my class. I am not saying you will not make an "A" in my class, but; the realization of making "A's" on every assignment is unrealistic. Also, I do not give people "A's" in my classes. Each and every student must earn them in my courses.

Best regards,

Joseph Kennedy

Joseph, one of the things you mentioned was having students informed by the university of expectations. One of things I will do, and it has proven effective, is tell students that something is university policy. That seems to reduce the feedback about grading of late assignments, discussions, etc. In addition to the rubric, I have started including examples of the assignments for the week so that students will have a visual of how their work product should look. Some times the rubric is a little ambiguous and I have found the examples have actually improved the quality of work that I receive.

I do agree that grades must be earned. I believe students' expectations are also based on what they experienced in previous classes. I have students say "My last professor did XXX" or "In my previous class, we were allowed to do ABC." Like you, I post my expectations in the course announcements and I continue to do so throughout the course as a reminder. I find that I get more questions in the forum when I take this approach, but it also shows me that most of my students are interested in meeting expectations.

Marquis

Great question!!! I love the dialogue here.

Since an adult is in a class by choice (most of the time), motivating them is different.

I have found that as the instructor, I must bring in the experience and knowledge of the student as a basis for teaching.

If I can tap into their vast knowledge accumulated over time and make it relevant for their future, it’s more likely they’ll have buy-in and be motivated to learn. For example, how will this class help them attain their goals or with their future endeavors?

Next, we are all adults. This means that we treat our students as equals and with the utmost respect because honestly, they may possess strengths in areas we are unaware and could actually benefit from as well. In other words, we may learn from them!

If a student is really struggling, it could be a ‘life” issue. Life gets in the way with adults because they are juggling more than just school. Many have families, jobs, financial challenges, etc. We need to provide a listening ear and often much grace. They’ll be more likely to want to succeed if they have a cheerleader in us.

I'm looking forward to your responses!

Hi Stephanie and thank you for joining us! I agree that adult learners bring an entirely different perspective to the classroom. Like you, I try to link discussions to their knowledge and areas of expertise. I always ask probing questions that require them to think about their current practices and consider alternative points of view as well.

I really liked your statement that "They'll be more likely to want to succeed if they have a cheerleader in us." I never thought about it in that way, but I love how well it fits with the idea of supporting students in the learning environment. I think I do a pretty good job creating a balance between reiterating classroom expectations while also working with students who reach out to me when they are experiencing issues that prevent them from turning in an assignment on time. I do this simply because I want them to, like the younger students I work with, when they know that you genuinely care about their well-being, they are more likely to want to do their best.

What do you do if you have a student who, despite your best efforts to remediate, will not engage in the classroom? He or she doesn't turn assignments in on time and refuses to participate in class discussions. Aside from contacting the academic advisor, are there methods that you use in these situations to draw the student back in, so to speak?

Marquis

Thanks for your quick response, Marquis!

You know, being a former middle school teacher, I found that the best way to reach any student is one on one. This can be projected to adult learners as well. As I mentioned, often, it's something deeper than just disengagement because of apathy or irresponsibility. Therefore, for me, I will reach out to the student personally in different forms. Perhaps it starts with a gentle email seeking information about the student and if there is anything they may have a question on. Then I may follow with a phone call or two. 

Again, there is usually something deeper going on. However, there are students who just are sliding through with no desire to learn. In these cases, we can only do so much. They are adults and are choosing to make this choice. 

I hope this helps. I'd love to hear from you and others on this!

I've read a lot about instructors using Flipped Classrooms to engage students in the classroom. Has anyone ever tried this and what were the strengths and weaknesses of this approach?

Carnegie Mellon University offers some great strategies for students who lack interest or motivation:

Students do not perceive the classroom climate as supportive.

Strategies:

1. Use the syllabus and first day of class to foster supportive climate.

2. Convey respect for students as individuals

3. Strive to make course content inclusive

4. Examine your own potentially demotivating assumptions about students

5. Establish and reinforce ground rules for classroom interaction.

6. Give student feedback on climate.

Question: Are we putting enough emphasis on student self-motivation and shared accountability in the learning environment?

Reference

Carnegie Mellon University. (2015). Solving a teaching problem. Retrieved from https://www.cmu.edu/teaching/solveproblem/step1-problem/index.html

Hello Marquis:

Thank you for the information from Carnegie Mellon University.

Based on these tenets, I do all of these, however; the most important aspects that I inform my students' about is self motivation. As leaders, we are going to have trials and issues in our lives. We have to self motivate ourselves to overcome. My faith in Christ is my way of self motivation and aspiring in his ways. I truly think the disconnect for students' as this is a Christian university is the ability to self motivate. I really think this should be taught and engaged in our curriculum for our students' at GCU.

Thank you!

Joseph

Joseph, I definitely agree that my faith and relationship with Christ has been the foundation of my own ability to be self-motivated. I truly feel that I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me. Teaching self-motivation may be a necessary component to the curriculum, especially as we are seeing more students becoming disconnected from the classroom. They may, indeed, need to be taught self-motivation. We certainly can't assume that they (a) know what it is and (b) know how to make it happen for themselves.

Joseph, You wrote, "I truly think the disconnect for students' as this is a Christian university is the ability to self motivate." 

I am trying to understand what you are saying here. I am going to put this in the form of a few questions spurred on by your statement:

1. Do some students think that because GCU is a Christian university that GCU will be less demanding or rigorous than a secular university?

2. Is there something about being a Christian that works against self-motivation?

3. Is the "grace" aspect of Christian faith a de-motivator for pursuing excellence in character and performance?

4. Should we assume that "being a Christian" is motivation enough to seek out excellence?

Those are the questions that come to mind for me.

Ron

Ron, great questions, all of which are very relevant to the discussion and give a new perspective about the issue of student motivation. I would love to hear what Joseph and others think in regards to some of the things you bring up in your post.

Hello Ron:

A better way to ask this question, if you are saved by Jesus Christ, "I truly think the disconnect is the inability to self motivate." As new people saved by Christ our motivation should come from him, our purpose should be to serve our Father in heaven. Self motivation is the ability to understand who we are, our purpose, and what we seek to accomplish.

1. Answering your question for the first question. Yes, I do think some students' think this way. I do not and I have high expectations for my students' in my classes.

2. Absolutely not! When a person has been saved early in their walk with Christ, they need to be discipled by people who are further down the road in their walk with Jesus Christ. This requires mentoring and fellowship.

3. Grace is understanding your humility or lack thereof. We are all sinners and broken people! We need to pursue not our own motivation, but what our Father in heaven seeks to glorify him.

4. As Jesus stated, a faith not in action is no faith at all. Question to believers: Are you active in your faith, if so; our actions based on our faith encourages us and motivates us to do our Father in heavens will. "Not our will, thine will be done as on earth as it is in heaven."

God Bless!

Joseph

Marquis, Thank you for the affirmation.

Joseph, Thank you for your response. Your two sentences: "As new people saved by Christ our motivation should come from him, our purpose should be to serve our Father in heaven. Self motivation is the ability to understand who we are, our purpose, and what we seek to accomplish." suggest to be the source of the disconnection you suggested in the quotation that i quoted from you earlier. 

If our motivation comes from Christ, then there is no "self" motivation. To suggest otherwise is to engage in dualistic thinking. My favorite Bible verse is "Christ in me the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27). 

What do you think?

Ron

I am not sure my class fits with the discussion (I teach in the RN-BSN degree program, Foundations of Spirituality in Healthcare), especially your points about faith It is a class that is already grounded in spirituality and the problem is with the non-Christian students and the one's not connected to church.

So I don't have a problem with them on the level of faith but rather on the level of required work.

I also think that I still pretty close to the university's expectations for a faculty member in terms of rubrics, course expectations and APA format.   It seems that the instructors before me may not follow these guidelines and so I come off as that hard a** instructor.

The students also seem to not understand that they start with 0 points and accumulate the points over the 5 weeks of the course.   So when they get few points in the first week and the same in the second week they think they are failing when in fact they can onlyaccumulate 25% of their grade in those weeks.

I do believe that the level of faith that the university seems to think the students have orshould have is unrealistic and no latitude is given to students who are not Christian.

On-line classes seem to be different in that I am engaged with the students everyday.  I am not sure however, that when I submit an early alert that the advisors are very helpful.

Vernon Meyer

Vernon, I have noticed the same behaviors--where students seem to not be as committed to turning in quality work or not turning assignments in on time. Of course, most of my students work hard and submit great work product. I am very pleased at the level of engagement during the discussions. However, there are a handful of students who just aren't committed to the class. Some of the assignments they turn in appear more aligned to high school-level work than graduate school. It's very surprising. 

Like you, I have often wondered about the requirements and practices of the instructors before me. Did they follow the guidelines? Were expectations lowered? I have even had students tell me that some professors are sticklers for the 20% Turnitin policy while others were not. I have no way of verifying the accuracy of these statements, but I've had a number of students tell me that so I have no reason to doubt them.

Early alerts are theoretically good resources because it does allow us to reach out to someone who can help us support the students' academic success. Some times I may get an acknowledgement email from the academic advisor, but most of the time I do not. That is one thing that I would like to change so that it becomes more of a collaborative effort. I have noticed that once I submit the alert, many of the students will improve their class performance but I would like to just develop that relationship with the advisor so that I know for sure we are all working together.

Ron, you stated that: If our motivation comes from Christ, then there is no "self" motivation. To suggest otherwise is to engage in dualistic thinking.

I think this is an awesome way of summing up who were are as Christians and I agree with you 100%.

However, as we have discussed, there are a number of our students who are not Christians, so their motivation may not necessarily come from the same source as ours. How then do we approach the idea of "reconnecting" them to the classroom, particularly from the perspective of an online instructor who has six weeks to engage students?

Hello Ron and Marquis:

As stated by Ron: "If our motivation comes from Christ, then there is no "self" motivation"

I disagree! 

If you are a child of God, where a person surrenders their life to Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells within them, their motivation is the same as Christ's motivation. Yes, we are created by God as people, but as a saved person, the Holy Spirit dwells within them, thus their motivation should be to emulate Jesus Christ. As I stated earlier, a new believer must be mentored and discipled, only in this manner can they truly understand the motivation and the will of God our Father in Heaven.

Joseph

Joseph, Actually, I think we agree. We maybe using different language, but I think we are saying the same thing. (One of the challenges of using this medium is the inability to fully explain one's understanding.)

Ron

Marquis, Yes, some of our students do not come from a Christian foundation or perspective when it comes to motivation. 

You asked how do we engage the student in the brief period of six or eight weeks?

First, I believe that students come with a self-interest in pursuing an education. They sought out GCU and signed up to spend a lot of money to get their degree which they intend to use in bettering their lives. I believe that creation received an "original blessing" that was not completely undone by the fall. Part of the creation story is the belief that humanity has a natural curiosity to learn, explore and apply God's truth. (All truth is God's truth.) I believe my positive attitude about the student's basic self-interest is catching and caught by the student. I tell my students, online and on ground, "I am cheering for your success. I want you to successfully complete this class." If I notice that the client does not "catch" my enthusiasm, I ask them, "Can you try and meet me at least half-way and turn in your assignments and answer the DQs." 

Second, my feedback is positive and corrective at the same time. I use the "sandwich" format when providing feedback. I see a remarkable improvement in the quality of the submitted work from the start of the class to the end of the class. When my classes are PSR-reviewed, the reviewers have all noted this pattern and affirmed it.

Third, when I see a student not participating or turning in less than quality work, I reach out to them. I express my concern and ask, "Is there something I should be aware of?" This last question often elicits information I was unaware of that explains the student's lack of participation or quality, e.g. a life event such as the death of a loved one, a loss of a job, or personal health issues. I encourage students to let their instructors know of such events early on in their interaction in future classes. If the student does not respond to my email or message in the individual forum I will call them.

What do you think?

Ron

Hi Ron, overall, I have had a great experience teaching at GCU and most of my students have been very engaged for the most part. There are a select few that have not and I try to be proactive in my approach with them. I send early alerts, personal messages through email and through the individual forum. Sometimes I have literally felt like I was begging them to take advantage of opportunities to remediate and get back on track. However, when a student states that the reason he/she has not turned in assignments is because they had other stuff to do, it takes on a different tone completely.

Like you, I sandwich my comments, intertwining positive and not so positive comments. I always reiterate that I want to do everything I can to support them. With this, I have had mixed results. Some students see this as a chance to take advantage of the offering of grace, get up to speed, and stay on track for the remainder of the course. One or two will use this as an "in" and turn in assignments whenever. I have had to become more assertive in my expectations and my approach, which has cut down on those behaviors. 

Marquis

Marquis, Is this experience in the online environment or in the ground classes? If the student is actually not taking their education seriously, they suffer the consequences of loss of points. Some students appear to be collecting student loan money to pay their bills. There is little we can do for these students.

Ron

Marquis and Ron, 

I have had the same experience with the online student. We can reach out as much as we can control, but at some point, we have to realize that the student is not responding. 

In many cases, I have found that when we give the student a bit of grace and flexibility, then they respond. However, I set the parameters. For example, I might say, "Joe, you can go back and answer the DQ's and assessment question by Friday to catch up. I will only deduct 10% if you can do it by then." Then I'll ask him what he thinks and we''ll come to an agreement. If he is unwilling to work with me, then I cannot do much to help him. I do error on the side of mercy to help the student along. Once they feel encouraged, many will rise to it and make the class successful. It takes extra effort on my part, but for many of these students it is worth it. 

What do you think?

Ron, these are online courses. I've heard similar stories from friends who teach at ground campuses in different parts of the country. I guess it's more surprising with graduate students because I expect them to have more of a foundation than an undergraduate student. When I was in grad school, I wanted to soak up as much information as possible. I want my students to be enthusiastic and committed to the learning process. As I stated, most of my students have been awesome...but a few have not been as motivated as I would have liked them to be. Of course, I would like to have 100% effort but I also realize this may not always be realistic.

Stephanie, I have been very diligent when looking for ways to support the students. Most of the time it has positive outcomes. I have had a couple of experiences where the student used my willingness to be flexible to turn in late assignments every week, so I had to change my approach. Vernon stated in a couple of posts back that many of these behaviors may be due to experiences the students had in previous class (and I am paraphrasing here), and I have to agree. I suspect that is the case. So, is it a problem of student disconnect or lowered expectations for our students?

Good discussion. I wish a few more faculty would join us, :)

That would be great...but I have thoroughly enjoyed the interactions I have had so far with those who have participated. You all have been awesome!

Thank you Marquis for facilitating this important discussion.

God Bless!

Joseph Kennedy

Marquis and Joseph -

I have also been confronted by students, especially about the discussion board requirements.  In most undergrad classes, they must post 2 initial responses to the questions, and 6 responses to classmates on 3 days.  I hear from students that other instructors don't follow that rule, but I remind them that it is GCU policy and I follow it in my classes.  They can see the actual policy in the Student Success Center under Class Policies.

I have had some issues regarding CAT responses.  Instructors are required to post them.  I post every week, but initially very few people responded, negating the purpose of assessing their understanding. (if-it-is an-option I-can -skip-it approach) Now, I require a response that counts on their participation grade.  That adds one more post to the participation requirements - 7 in total.  If they don't post to the CAT question, they lose .5 of their participation grade.  I now have nearly 100% compliance every week.

Sally

Hello Sally:

Thank you for the information. I was told by GCU Faculty Training & Development students' are to only answer three student replies a week for both DQ forums. Also, every week I post my CAT's at the end of the weekly discussions.

Joseph

Joseph, I just checked again, and this is what is posted in the Student Success Center in both of my online classes:

Online Classrooms Participation can be earned only by posting substantive, quality messages to fellow classmates and the instructor in the main forum of the classroom. Specific courses may have alternative participation requirements. Students are encouraged to review the course syllabus and consult with the faculty member prior to the course start.

Courses # Required Days # Required Substantive Posts Each Day

UNV-103, UNV-104, PHI-105, ENG-105, PSY-100, CWV-101       4      2

All Other Undergrad      3     2

Graduate and Doctoral     3      1

Were you talking about online or ground classes?

Sally

As a Faculty Specialist in Faculty Training and Development, let me try to clarify. As Sally indicates above, for most undergraduate online courses students are required to post a total of six times (twice on three different days). This lends itself to a healthy conversation. Students can respond to a CAT instead of another student and it would count the same. As long as they have responded 6 times they should get full participation points (as long as the responses are substantial).

That being said, "Faculty may alter participation and discussion questions expectations (i.e. word count, reference requirements, amount of posts, etc.) as long as the minimum university requirements are met and the workload is reasonable considering the other work required in the course, the level of the course, etc. If expectations are altered please post an announcement on or before the first day of the class so students are abreast of the expectations" ("Online Faculty Policy Manual", 2015, p. 18). 

So, you can't require less than 6 (for All Other Undergrad) and if you require more, you need to let the students know on Day 1. Keep in mind that if you require more, you might get some push-back.

Onground participation is different because they do so in class. 

I hope this information helps.

Thanks,

Georgette Gorman

In following this discussion it occurred to me that I might want to ask my students, in the Class Wall, why they are going to school or why they are in my class. Perhaps I can find out from them what motivates them. I teach PSY-102 and many of my students will honestly tell me that they are in my class because it meets the gen ed requirement. I appreciate their honesty. I take it as a challenge to make the information applicable so that they leave with more than just the grade they wanted. For my psych majors, I often challenge them a little more because they are intrinsically motivated. The suggestions to increase motivation that Marquis provided were all great. (1) get to know your students (2) use examples freely (3) relate lessons to students' experiences/lives (4) set expectations (5) be enthusiastic and energetic about teaching (6) vary instructional strategies (7) involve students in teaching. My favorite is #1. The more we know about them, the more we can determine their motivations.

Sally and Georgette, thank you for the clarification. I did add an extra discussion question once in one of my online classes and I had a student ask me why there were three questions instead of two. I have to admit that I was caught off guard because presumed (erroneously, of course), that my students would just take it as par for the course. I don't think I ever remember any of my classmates ever questioning or challenging a professor. Individuals, including myself, sought a higher education because they wanted it. Now, it's almost as if students are so far removed from the very thing they are seeking. I wonder what has happened to cause this change in attitude and behavior?

I, too, try to make the information more applicable by using case scenarios and relevant articles I find that I think will be of interest to them. Like Sally, I find some of my students responding and some don't unless I make it a requirement in order to receive points. I considered ways to use participation points to increase engagement across the board but wasn't sure if it would be an acceptable practice. Now that I know for sure, I will definitely adjust participation expectations to include CATS and other classroom requirements.

Hello Sally:

I am referring to online classes

Regards,

Joseph

Marquis and friends,

Firsts, this discussion has motivated me (haha) to study this idea deeper. I am working on an article about the "myth" of motivation because we have to get the student to WANT the want. The point being that everyone is motivated about something; our goal should be to find a way to reach each student and help them be motivated about what we bring them. 

THANK YOU for this topic.

Next, I too am baffled by the entitlement and egocentric attitudes in some of my graduate students (many are over 25). It's a generational shift, so I have to do much frontloading of my expectations...no surprises! Hence, I open the class with a welcome video (I teach online 3/4ths of the time), saying that they will be required to do XYZ. (I add to the required 3 replies on 3 separate days with an assessment question. Participation by students is often something many do because it is required, but in that process, many will actually enjoy it if I challenge them as well. 

Hi Marquis; 

Thank you for starting this discussion.

Hi Stephanie;

Thank you for your contribution to this discussion. I agree with you 100%; however, I can see where Joseph is coming from. i am a good listener and try to work with my students. But some students are "know it all(s)" and they believe that they should earn A on every assignment no matter what quality of work they submitted to the instructor. I try to remind them nicely, of what the assignment instruction requires of them and what the rubric says. That seem to help. Thank you.

Sali  

Stephanie, I liked the phrase: we have to get the student to WANT the want. Putting it in those terms, it seems like a tall order to fill. When has an instructor done all that he or she can or should do to engage students? True, in today's classroom, instructors are required to do so much more to engage students. But when do we say to our students, "Okay, I've done this, this and this...now it's up to you." Is there a cut-off point?

We are definitely dealing with Generation Entitlement. I think, though, that we play a role in supporting their behavior by assuming the responsibility of having to motivate them to take an active part in the education that THEY are paying to receive. I often wonder if there is anything that we can do to remediate this behavior or is it too late? 

I like the idea of doing a video at the beginning of class and I definitely want to do it in my own classroom. Do you simply provide a link or do you upload it to the forum?

Sali, thank you for joining us!

Hello Marquis and Stephanie:

I agree with you Marquis and Stephanie, but; my concern is this. As a Christian university, we need to let our students' what is expected of them when they attend here. Yes, GCU does provide them with our covenants based on the Holy Bible, but we need to go further, detailing exactly what this university expects from all students. Yes, we want all students, both saved and unsaved by Jesus Christ, but; we also need to let all students' know what is expected from them in a code of conduct or student ethics that will be applied to their behavior, comments, and actions in the classroom and in the public. It is easy to state something, but; we need to have specific actions that will affect specific student behavior. For example, to have a student council, made up of students, faculty, and administrators to determine the code of conduct of students. This council could also be convened to rule on specific student behavior, both within the classroom and online.

Best regards,

Joseph Kennedy

Hi Marquis, 

It's a tension, isn't it..How much singing and dancing do we do to motivate? But I go back to the beginning. We all can become unmotivated at some point. We, as instructors, really do have to do our best to reach each student. There is only so much we can do, yes.

As for a video, yes, I just do a YouTube on my account. It's super short. Here is a sample:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGrNo9wwO_0. I have them reply after they watch. I try to do others when I need to explain something more in depth. 

Agreed, Joseph. I don't think helping a student who is having trouble focusing and staying motivated is beyond our scope. I think we all have high expectations. Like you said, the key is communicating those UP FRONT. That is why, for online, I like a video to warm up the tone. 

Joseph, a council would be a great idea but it would be up to individual instructors to enforce rules regarding student behavior. We would all have to be consistent with our efforts to report student behavior. In other words, we cannot have some instructors cite student behavior while others choose to ignore it. I believe that's what causes some of the issues from class to class...when one instructor makes allowances for everything while others are more diligent in following the standards and expectations of the university.

Stephanie, I am definitely going to try to video...thank you for sharing this idea! 

I post many announcements in the first week. I post an announcement in the Main Forum with a list of the titles of the announcements. I say this: 

"After you have read the above announcements and posted your bio on the Class Wall, come back here and say, 'Done' and sign your name."

The majority of the students comply with my request.

ron